Curse

robmdq · Apr 10, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Wow.... you didn't think about that one much did you? So, a N/Rt can't be an effective healer anymore because they no long had passive energy management to spam heals with.... But, you also remove the ability for Rangers to make use of Throw Dirt, Lightning Reflexes, Glass Arrows, etc., or Monks from using Blessed Light, Unyielding Aura, Blessed Signet, etc., or Warriors from using Enraging Charge, Flail, Bull's Strike, etc., or Assassin's from using Twisting Fangs, Critical Defenses, Assassin's Remedy, etc....... See where this is going? I didn't bring into account things like Warrior's Endurance or Way of the Assassin, but just typical build skills.

Not having the attribute removes those skills. Sure, maybe they will have access to the skills, just can't put attribute points into them, but then the stances last such a short time, nobody would use them, the enchantments would be the same, and the damage/duration would not be worth using. You would kill almost any build except ones that can bypass a primary attribute COMPLETELY, and not many of those exist.

As i said before, i was being sarcastic due to some previous posts where i've read some tendency to say that the problem with SR came from its use by heroes. But thinking about it, it wouldn't affect any human played build, so there is no harm. Remember i said "Remove it from heroes" not from human players.

The more real part of that post was my answer to the previous poster abour EXPERTISE on rangers. In fact i am oposed to the builds using the primary attribute to play the secondary class, the secondary profession should be as it names tells, SECONDARY, which means in second place, not as important as the primary, etc etc etc etc blah blah blah should be to help your primary and not the other way around.

I'm sorry for the confusion, i will add the sarcasm tags on that post to prevent further missreading.

EDIT: Re-reading your post i fell in the account that hey, look at this: If we remove primaries a lot of skills disapear, but wait... my necros (core) does not have a single SR skill......... ¿isn't that having LESS than other classes in fact?

Allamorph · Apr 10, 2010, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Wow.... you didn't think about that one much did you?

He already said he was being sarcastic.

Which I was kind of hoping he was, because jeeze....

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Go try a Paragon MM. Then we'll talk.

Not only does this not make any sense in context, but already a build concept has sprung into my head that still takes advantage of Leadership. (inb4 not posting that either because the hell I'm going to MM with my paragon

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, how about we assume that on average,

And cut.

Did I not just say to be careful with statistics? In any case, while I'm going MMing with my para, you take your necro self out in the game and sit still for fifteen seconds while thinking about all the spells you could be spamming (because that's what the game is about, after all) except you can't because you burned all your energy.

Stop using. The freaking average card. It's helpful data. That is all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

people have a tendency to see what they want to see. some words are like a mirror.

Irony. (Some words are less vague than others.)

Amaurosis · Apr 10, 2010, 03:06 AM // 03:06

SR is a strong primary attribute, and provides a decent energy return upon deaths with a cap and time limit. Yet, under no circumstances has it had a major effect on gameplay which is why it will probably not be changed any further. Necros aren't presently rolling as monks, elementalists, or mesmers to such a high degree that they're basically removing them from play. N/Rt may be the only exception considering the costs for Rit healing+SR provides higher survivability. People aren't flocking to make/use necros to cover the roles of other professions, and believing otherwise is ridiculous.

This thread has been going back and forth about necros being able to be more careless in terms of energy, however that's all that is being said. If you aren't being driven away from your primary because of SR then what foundation do you have to deem it a candidate for being nerfed. Unless there is actual evidence that necros are taking over every spellcasting profession, then attempting to have it nerfed is trivial.

I'm also curious as to why you would want to hurt necromancers, considering how they're actually on your team.

The Drunkard · Apr 10, 2010, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

It depends largely on how long a fight lasts. If a fight is over really quickly then the Mes can frontload their skills more easily (can gain energy before the Nec reliably can) but then they're less useful - if you blew the enemy up that quick then they weren't much threat and you weren't valuable.
If a fight lasts a bit longer and you want to keep casting then the Necro quickly catches up.

I think HigherMinion was trying to say that as a primary mesmer you can unload all of your conditions faster than a necro, which shuts them down before they can blow your party up.

drkn · Apr 10, 2010, 08:26 AM // 08:26

@Amaurosis
the problem with SR, at least in my opinion, is not that SR enables necros to emulate other classes. this is why we have dual classes - if FC was decent in PVE (that is, PVE have benefited more from being able to cast faster and there was no mindbender), fast casting me/e (or, generally, me/x) would be cool too. with nearly no mesmer skills.
'my problem' is in SR's e-management. passive, undisruptable, non-skill, automated. it's superior to other primairy attributes in PVE and it's superior to lots of options of general e-management. and still, it has decent skills there.
it would be fine if it was the only necro's strong side. they can generate minions, have superior hexes, can effectively shutdown physicals, can aid the party, can drain life, can generate massive aoe damage through SS, can generate massive damage on bosses via SV. and on top of that, usually don't have to worry about their energy - at least not that much as other classes.

ChaosWarrior · Apr 10, 2010, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Why do you want to remove soul reaping... You want to kill the game even more?
Let it... What purpose would necro heroes have if they can't be minion bombers? Just your travel company that cooks you dinner?

Pandora's box · Apr 10, 2010, 10:12 AM // 10:12

/Not signed

SR has already been nerfed before. Players are still suffering from THAT nerf (though often because they don't understand the concept, but that is part of the game: it should be playable for everyone) see for example this wiki page:

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Talk..._counter-rants

Thing is that a lot of necro builds (escpecially those who do'nt use minions) hardly have any benefit from SR at all. No reason to make it even worse.

Cuilan · Apr 10, 2010, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I think HigherMinion was trying to say that as a primary mesmer you can unload all of your conditions faster than a necro, which shuts them down before they can blow your party up.

He knows exactly what Higher Minion said, as a mesmer with a similar build is again... worthless if they can't cast. Foes scatter, new foes appear, fights sometimes last longer than expected, the build may be used in a group without enough damage, etc.

Spiritz · Apr 10, 2010, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Without going out and trawling thru pvx and guru to find out current minion bomber builds i`ll go by what i remember - isnt the minions meant to act like walking timebombs and blowup as needed - also last bomber build i saw ages ago suggested +1 dm head rather than +3 as you dont want minions living longer than needed.
And the bull about oh they have high sr due to high cost skills - so the same arguement can be said about ele`s ??? oh i forgot they also have a few long recharge high cost spells which means jack to me as im sure many ele users dont pack a skillbar full of long recharge skills.
And i lol`d when someone said about mesmer - for once someones given mesmers a gd use as i always thought mesmers were least liked due to their bad skills ( bad is in anets concept of what the class should be able to do ).
If sr bothers you that much either dont use necro or necro heros or the easy alt is to set all your heros to zero sr then try using them.

HigherMinion · Apr 10, 2010, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I think HigherMinion was trying to say that as a primary mesmer you can unload all of your conditions faster than a necro, which shuts them down before they can blow your party up.

Pretty much. And the fact that you don't need that extra skill slot free. Make it energy management, and be on your way. Fevered Dreams would be alot harder to interrupt with FC also. I put it to you that N/Me FD is a bit gimmicky.

Xenomortis · Apr 10, 2010, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I put it to you that N/Me FD is a bit gimmicky.

I fail to see why it matters in the slightest.
But nevertheless; define "gimmick".

HigherMinion · Apr 10, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I fail to see why it matters in the slightest.
But nevertheless; define "gimmick".

gimmick n. A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick, especially a mechanism for the secret and dishonest control of gambling apparatus.

Well... That doesn't really help. You don't need the extra energy; therefore Soul Reaping is useless. If you really wanted that extra skill slot, then fine. Use an essence and rock candy for the extra speed.

If someone wishes to supply me with a better definition, please do.

Morphy · Apr 10, 2010, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

gimmick n. A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick, especially a mechanism for the secret and dishonest control of gambling apparatus.

Well... That doesn't really help. You don't need the extra energy; therefore Soul Reaping is useless. If you really wanted that extra skill slot, then fine. Use an essence and rock candy for the extra speed.

If someone wishes to supply me with a better definition, please do.

A gimmick is a build or team build that takes little or no skill at all to play.

^ the definition of a gimmick in balance terms

Allamorph · Apr 10, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

gimmick (v.) – to equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc.

Translating to noun form via this definition:

gimmick (n.) – an unnecessary embellishment or feature (esp. in order to increase acceptance)

Which, given the context, is pretty spot-on, I think. Although the connection of this to the actual topic is tenuous at best.

**cosyfiep** · Apr 11, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19

I think they should buff some of the other primaries of the other classes ...if they are equal to that of the necro then the point would be moot again.